canvas of death

Canvas specific discussion

canvas of death

Postby zengel » 05 Dec 2014 15:47

hi ! i tried to use canvas ... and it's really great for designing animating. more power under my finger ...but ?
sooooo slooooowwww....
the same template with and without canvas .... uncalculable frame rate gain... is the canvas will be optimised in future version of the lemur or
should i get rid of canvas on my ipad 2 wifi only and go back to stone age in matter of design ?

here is with the canvas object...sooooo greatttt !!
template_ua_p1.jpg
template_ua_p1.jpg (118.12 KiB) Viewed 5900 times

template_ua_p2.jpg
template_ua_p2.jpg (128.58 KiB) Viewed 5900 times

template_ua_p3.jpg
template_ua_p3.jpg (84.63 KiB) Viewed 5900 times
Last edited by zengel on 05 Dec 2014 16:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: canvas of death

Postby zengel » 05 Dec 2014 16:06

the same without canvas....

no_sc_ua_p1.jpg
no_sc_ua_p1.jpg (83.12 KiB) Viewed 5900 times

no_sc_ua_p2.jpg
no_sc_ua_p2.jpg (94.49 KiB) Viewed 5900 times

no_sc_ua_p3.jpg
no_sc_ua_p3.jpg (75.72 KiB) Viewed 5900 times
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Re: canvas of death

Postby zengel » 05 Dec 2014 16:27

before questionning about "optimisation" of the template"
i already use a lot ofaliseson many many things , on canvases to. canvas are most of the time on "on demand" (and there is a bug on 'rounded corner of pannel' they are not rounded anyway if i i put canvas on 'on demand' and i load the template again)
i put all canvas on "no touch" cause i don't need it etc...etc... and with many effort to optimise the template with canvas......
14 fps with canvas.... :cry:
26 fps without..... :shock:

please....for chrismas time..do something.... :roll:
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Re: canvas of death

Postby Phil999 » 06 Dec 2014 00:51

I also ran into that problem lately ... but if you have the canvases "on demand" (all of them) you can use dozens of them while maintaining acceptable frame rates on an iPad2. You may have a look at the "West" WIP template posted here in the forum, and especially the valuable tips from Macciza in that thread.

Knob objects use a lot of resources too. 26 fps is rather low as well.

So, the combination of many Canvas and Knob objects is a big frame rate killer. Also MultiSliders in great number bring down the frame rate rather easily.

There are not much options to optimise that. One method is to use containers with tabs. The objects in the non-visible container tabs do not affect the frame rate (you may have a look at the "Diva" template here in the forum; it has no Canvas objects, but lots of Knob and MultiSlider objects). But sometimes we don't want to hide things, so it's not always a good solution. Maybe use less equations and use more values/numbers in the canvas scripts, optimise scripts in general, ...

What I started to do is to make tests before creating a big, resource-hungry project. I take that Canvas object I want to use and duplicate it until I have 128 of them, and measure with a fps meter. This gives me an idea how the final project will perform. Just duplicating stuff, spending countless hours with arranging and labeling, and then finding out that the finished project runs at only 7 fps is very frustrating.

We must realise that Lemur is not really intended for synth programmers with 100+ parameters and one object per parameter. It is rather intended for MultiSliders and multi-pads that control a big number of parameters at once. Or to control only a selection of few parameters. That's how the legacy templates were built. One has to plan beforehand, knowing exactly what one wants. And make use of clever scripting that is easy to perform.

I'm even thinking about switching to TB MIDI Stuff, TouchOSC, MIDI Designer, or similar, although I haven't done big projects in those apps yet, don't know if they perform better than Lemur. Yeah, Lemur's Canvas object is really nice, but maybe in other apps that have bitmap support one could find a better solution especially for synth programmers with lots of parameters.

I suspect that one of the biggest performance issues come from circles, round edges, and transparency. Actually a graphical problem, not directly related to the CPU. Or maybe it is related to the CPU. I don't know. The low fps problem with the Knob object was described by AB and myself quite a while ago, but it seems there is no simple solution to be found by the developers. I hope we can discuss this further in this thread, and others provide other optimisation methods, and even the developers can give some hints.
Formant+Eurorack, PPG wave 2.2, Korg MS-20, etc., EWI 4000s, QuNeo, etc., Mixbus32c, u-he, MadronaLabs, Samplemodeling, NI, etc., iPad2/4/Pro
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Re: canvas of death

Postby Macciza » 06 Dec 2014 04:02

Hi
Have also met with various frame rate issues in different projects at different points ...

Ultimately I did research into the generic Html5 Canvas, and it's performance constraints, and thus to my other thread about tips, tricks, optimisations etc. I would recommend reading up on optimisation as it pertains to the Canvas.

Optimising Canvas scripts involves a lot of things that are really not self evident but may have enormous impacts. Some logical structures that may look better may in fact perform worse due to how the Canvas works, the underlying layer. Some of these are mentioned in the other thread. I have certainly been guilty of breaking many of them at times...

If you want to post some of the canvas code I could have a look and see what ideas I could offer...
Will try and post a bit more to the other thread soon and maybe we can get some other canvas discussions going...

Cheers
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Re: canvas of dea

Postby zengel » 08 Dec 2014 10:49

Hi both !
Thanks for the answers ! I already have touch osc and midi designer but never get convinced by these two app. But i never heard about tb midi stuff ... Then i bought it and it´s really great ! Not a 'simple' midi designer . We can make big stuff and their editor is great and work really smoothly . We can hide things to and manage the position of elements on 'layers' ! That´s the bigining for me for designing good template . And.... YOU CAN IMPORT PIECE OF PICTURE TO DESIGN ALL THE ELEMENTS !!!!!!! For knobs, faders, background for all !!! For me it,s a biiiig plus! Thanks phil999 !!!
It´s not a ´deep programing ´ app as the lemur but.
I use the lemur since the legacy one (i bought it the big price in the past) and the add done by liine is great . But the app crashes everytime i use it. (On the ipad not on my pc... But i want to work on the ipad with it). The canvas is a good idea if was not so slow and complicated to optimise. The path choosen by liine is not the good one for me. The lemur is not a 'pure' programation controller and going to this side is not the good way for musician and composers . I love programing to but not spending so mutch time to optimise things. I prefer spending time in composing, doing music and lemur should be easy to use enough to make template without brain storming on 'why it´s so slow ´ whatever you do.
And tb midi stuff is faaaaaasssttt . Even if you spend time on it the template you do is fast ! And you can reproduce exactly the same interface as the original interface . I took serum (the vst one) picture and began to cut the knob and i import it in tb stuff... I can make the same design as the original vst !!! That s a real plus for me. I have to see deeply what can be done and what can't before begining to switch .but first things i saw are good point.
But that´s my opinion. I will certainly design more stuff on the lemur if it get back to a more friendly and not buggy user interface .(debugg the app!!!!!!!)
I want to post my template macciza where i do that . I don't want to spend more time on it and i think it could be great to have the ultra analog lemurized. And i let you ˆoptimise' it if you want. The design is finish in 100% and the programming work 100% with the plug behavior. But it need more work that i dońt want to spend anymore for the optimisation.
Thanks guyz !
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Re: canvas of death

Postby Phil999 » 09 Dec 2014 08:59

good to hear about your experience with TB MIDI Stuff. I might have a look at this app because I spent all my time with Lemur.

So you cut graphics from the screen and put it into the app? I admit I didn't really know. Surely something I must have a look at. So many things to do, and only 24 hours a day ...
Formant+Eurorack, PPG wave 2.2, Korg MS-20, etc., EWI 4000s, QuNeo, etc., Mixbus32c, u-he, MadronaLabs, Samplemodeling, NI, etc., iPad2/4/Pro
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Re: canvas of death

Postby zengel » 09 Dec 2014 11:43

Phil999 wrote:good to hear about your experience with TB MIDI Stuff. I might have a look at this app because I spent all my time with Lemur.

So you cut graphics from the screen and put it into the app? I admit I didn't really know. Surely something I must have a look at. So many things to do, and only 24 hours a day ...

Hi phil999 ! Not as easy as that. Have to cut and work it on photoshop. I use photoshop ipad version and it do the work perfectly. It took me 10 minutes to copy a picture of the interface on the net ,load it in photoshop. Take the knob( a knob is a circle... Then i used the circle selection...lol) . Save it in png and import it in tb stuff (and yes in tbstuff you select the picture you want for the objet you want ...and you have it ! ;) )
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