[NOT a issue]Lemur Touch release delay
Ok lemme test it! OF course Im not taking your questions as whining....its shear interest and I like it! Perhpaps you've found a bug after all! BRB
Re: Lemur Touch release delay
Ok one question though, what IS TOUCH AUTOMATION? I suspect this is where we are lost in translation! Because this is definitely not a Lemur feature but I assume a feature of your DAW, that MIGHT cause the results you are seeing!
Re: Lemur Touch release delay
NOTE:
It's even easier to see what is happening just using a midi monitor program on your daw computer. All the below explanations are really unnecessary but perhaps interesting anyway.
Touch the fader and move fully up or down. then Just look at the midi controller data sent from lemur about one second AFTER you stop touching the fader.
I use automation all day every day, so it's all just second nature to me what all this means and how it's supposed to work.
I'm sorry for the long winded explanation below:
Do you have Cubase or logic (or even reaper)?
Then first record/ automate the movement of a volume fader, at what level is irrelevant, but just to make it easy push it to the top, do this using your mouse on screen. Automation in Cubase needs to be activated with R+W (similar in Logic IIRC.
Now backup and playback that automation. Now, while playing back drag the fader fully down with your mouse and then release it while the automation is still playing.
Result is that the fader jumps back to the old automated level as soon as you let it go.
The above result is what is generally called touch automation.
((Alternatively Cubase and Nuendo can also be set to work in latch mode (the modes are set in the automation panel window). This mode can't be used to check this issue.))
When you released your fader with the mouse it would return more or less immediately to the previously recorded automation level. That is a result we want also using lemur. I.e. when I stop touching the fader/knob/multiball it then stops sending data to the daw and thus the daw now returns the recorded automation level to what was previously recorded.
Now have lemur control that fader (send and receive), playback the automated level change, now grab the fader and record a drastically different fader level. Then stop touching the fader and notice the difference in time until the fader jumps back to the previously recorded automation level. In my case the delay is almost a second...
I can see that this is caused by the midi data that lemur is sending out as it is transmitting a new message about a second after I release the fader (I use midi monitor to check what data is sent to my daw). And it does not send any data at all at the actual time of release.
It's even easier to see what is happening just using a midi monitor program on your daw computer. All the below explanations are really unnecessary but perhaps interesting anyway.
Touch the fader and move fully up or down. then Just look at the midi controller data sent from lemur about one second AFTER you stop touching the fader.
I use automation all day every day, so it's all just second nature to me what all this means and how it's supposed to work.
I'm sorry for the long winded explanation below:
Do you have Cubase or logic (or even reaper)?
Then first record/ automate the movement of a volume fader, at what level is irrelevant, but just to make it easy push it to the top, do this using your mouse on screen. Automation in Cubase needs to be activated with R+W (similar in Logic IIRC.
Now backup and playback that automation. Now, while playing back drag the fader fully down with your mouse and then release it while the automation is still playing.
Result is that the fader jumps back to the old automated level as soon as you let it go.
The above result is what is generally called touch automation.
((Alternatively Cubase and Nuendo can also be set to work in latch mode (the modes are set in the automation panel window). This mode can't be used to check this issue.))
When you released your fader with the mouse it would return more or less immediately to the previously recorded automation level. That is a result we want also using lemur. I.e. when I stop touching the fader/knob/multiball it then stops sending data to the daw and thus the daw now returns the recorded automation level to what was previously recorded.
Now have lemur control that fader (send and receive), playback the automated level change, now grab the fader and record a drastically different fader level. Then stop touching the fader and notice the difference in time until the fader jumps back to the previously recorded automation level. In my case the delay is almost a second...
I can see that this is caused by the midi data that lemur is sending out as it is transmitting a new message about a second after I release the fader (I use midi monitor to check what data is sent to my daw). And it does not send any data at all at the actual time of release.
Sound post production to feature film & TV.
Nuendo and ProTools. Dubstage with Euphonix S5MC 32 fader.
8 editing rooms without hardware controllers.
Nuendo and ProTools. Dubstage with Euphonix S5MC 32 fader.
8 editing rooms without hardware controllers.
Re: Lemur Touch release delay
Im sorry but I do not have Nuendo or Cubase....
I do however know the inside outs of Lemur especially in midi messages and I can reassure you something FROM your DAW is causing the fader to behave like that - I have never seen any object of Lemur send delayed messages.
Are you saying you are using a plain midi monitor in your computer, no Nuendo-Cubase connected, and the fader still behaves as you describe?
As a side note, DAWs generally speaking, are always sending feedback back to midi controllers with a specific delay to avoid "flickering" (discussed elsewhere in these forums, I think it was with you again? not sure, anyways).....Sometimes, the delayed feedback is some 500ms slower....Are you sure this isnt the culprit with your case? (delayed feedback, causing a slight change of value to the fader, fader resends the last value gained) In some DAWs you can even customize that "feedback delay" or "controller surface update rate" as needed!
I do however know the inside outs of Lemur especially in midi messages and I can reassure you something FROM your DAW is causing the fader to behave like that - I have never seen any object of Lemur send delayed messages.
Are you saying you are using a plain midi monitor in your computer, no Nuendo-Cubase connected, and the fader still behaves as you describe?
As a side note, DAWs generally speaking, are always sending feedback back to midi controllers with a specific delay to avoid "flickering" (discussed elsewhere in these forums, I think it was with you again? not sure, anyways).....Sometimes, the delayed feedback is some 500ms slower....Are you sure this isnt the culprit with your case? (delayed feedback, causing a slight change of value to the fader, fader resends the last value gained) In some DAWs you can even customize that "feedback delay" or "controller surface update rate" as needed!
Re: Lemur Touch release delay
Yep 100%. That is exactly what happens. On three different computers with different OS, 10.7.5 & 10.8.4.
Using Lemur 4.1.
Lemur sends one additional message approx 1 sec after the fader is untouched. And no message when it IS untouched.
I really should go to sleep now (01:27 am) but if you guys can't reproduce, I'll shoot some iPhone video tomorrow showing the behaviour using nothing but midi monitor, and also separately the resulting issue when using a daw and automation.
EDIT: to answer your question better. No the fader with just midi monitor will not behave "physically" on the lemur in the same way as I have described in earlier posts as it IS the DAW that causes it to actually change position after release. But it will clearly send its last message about a second after it is released when tested using midi monitor only.
Using Lemur 4.1.
Lemur sends one additional message approx 1 sec after the fader is untouched. And no message when it IS untouched.
I really should go to sleep now (01:27 am) but if you guys can't reproduce, I'll shoot some iPhone video tomorrow showing the behaviour using nothing but midi monitor, and also separately the resulting issue when using a daw and automation.
EDIT: to answer your question better. No the fader with just midi monitor will not behave "physically" on the lemur in the same way as I have described in earlier posts as it IS the DAW that causes it to actually change position after release. But it will clearly send its last message about a second after it is released when tested using midi monitor only.
Last edited by ErikG on 29 Oct 2013 00:35, edited 1 time in total.
Sound post production to feature film & TV.
Nuendo and ProTools. Dubstage with Euphonix S5MC 32 fader.
8 editing rooms without hardware controllers.
Nuendo and ProTools. Dubstage with Euphonix S5MC 32 fader.
8 editing rooms without hardware controllers.
Re: Lemur Touch release delay
Ok then, I 'll do some tests tomorrow too although Im quite sure I wont be able to reproduce it! 2.30 here! lol
Re: Lemur Touch release delay
Ok actually I was so curious I just tried it.....
Lemur latest version, iPad2, Daemon, LoopBe virtual midi ports, Windows 7 32 bit PC....
I cant reproduce the problem, the fader correctly stops sending messages as long as it is still - touching it or not, as you correctly noted, doesnt matter if for example your finger is always at the far "top" or far "bottom" position of the fader....
And in fact I used a "through router" connection (not ad-hok, PC connected to router and internet, iPad connected to router and internet) which actually is the LEAST recommended connection, noted as somewhat "slow"
Still cannot reproduce! Can you send me a sample template of yours, already midi mapped, all set to go so I can test it?
Lemur latest version, iPad2, Daemon, LoopBe virtual midi ports, Windows 7 32 bit PC....
I cant reproduce the problem, the fader correctly stops sending messages as long as it is still - touching it or not, as you correctly noted, doesnt matter if for example your finger is always at the far "top" or far "bottom" position of the fader....
And in fact I used a "through router" connection (not ad-hok, PC connected to router and internet, iPad connected to router and internet) which actually is the LEAST recommended connection, noted as somewhat "slow"
Still cannot reproduce! Can you send me a sample template of yours, already midi mapped, all set to go so I can test it?
Re: Lemur Touch release delay
Hi
You really need to include some sort of example project to show what, and how you are trying to do, what you are doing . . .
I can't really guess how you are doing things - ie You say 'No message when it is untouched' but do you have anything mapped to 'z'? That is the 'touch' variable
If you are just looking at the 'x' var then it may send late for various reasons explained already . . . Also what message is sent? The Fader CC? Touch CC?
Are you using whatever message you are sending from 'z' ? Logic allows you to set 'touch/release' for Faders to work with console faders with touch control?
Do you have such a hardware controller that you can compare results against? I dare say the response from a hardware fader will be different to onscreen mouse control also.
Remember there is a communication element in all this as well - you still have not said how you are connected? If through a router then literally 'ANY' message can be delayed by the network . . .
Also, even adhoc setups can encounter delays for various reasons - connecting via a decent MIDI interface on both ends should give best/fastest response times . . .
You really need to include some sort of example project to show what, and how you are trying to do, what you are doing . . .
I can't really guess how you are doing things - ie You say 'No message when it is untouched' but do you have anything mapped to 'z'? That is the 'touch' variable
If you are just looking at the 'x' var then it may send late for various reasons explained already . . . Also what message is sent? The Fader CC? Touch CC?
Are you using whatever message you are sending from 'z' ? Logic allows you to set 'touch/release' for Faders to work with console faders with touch control?
Do you have such a hardware controller that you can compare results against? I dare say the response from a hardware fader will be different to onscreen mouse control also.
Remember there is a communication element in all this as well - you still have not said how you are connected? If through a router then literally 'ANY' message can be delayed by the network . . .
Also, even adhoc setups can encounter delays for various reasons - connecting via a decent MIDI interface on both ends should give best/fastest response times . . .
iMac 2.8G i7 12G 10.6.8/10.7.2, Legacy Dexter/Lemur, Liine Lemur/iPad2, KMI SoftStep, 12Step & QuNeo , B-Controls, Mackie C4 etc
MaxMSP, Live Suite, Native Instrument stuff, etc Modified Virtual Guitar System etc All Projects/Modules © CC-BY-NC-SA[*][/b]
MaxMSP, Live Suite, Native Instrument stuff, etc Modified Virtual Guitar System etc All Projects/Modules © CC-BY-NC-SA[*][/b]
Re: [NOT a issue]Lemur Touch release delay
Edit:
I'M STUPID
I have no idea how I seemed to get the results I did earlier. And yes it seems like Lemur is doing exactly what it should...
And yes it seems to be Nuendo that is actuallu causing this somehow. Iwas sure I didnt have it on, but I must have had it running in the background and not realizing that it was.
Sorry for taking up all your time.
The issue remains but it does look like a Nuendo issue and not a Lemur issue!
I'M STUPID
I have no idea how I seemed to get the results I did earlier. And yes it seems like Lemur is doing exactly what it should...
And yes it seems to be Nuendo that is actuallu causing this somehow. Iwas sure I didnt have it on, but I must have had it running in the background and not realizing that it was.
Sorry for taking up all your time.
The issue remains but it does look like a Nuendo issue and not a Lemur issue!
Sound post production to feature film & TV.
Nuendo and ProTools. Dubstage with Euphonix S5MC 32 fader.
8 editing rooms without hardware controllers.
Nuendo and ProTools. Dubstage with Euphonix S5MC 32 fader.
8 editing rooms without hardware controllers.
Re: [NOT a issue]Lemur Touch release delay
lol Dont be so harsh on yourself!
Glad to see you sorted it out! As for actually making the thing work as you wanted, perhaps the key feature here would be to make your DAW use that extra functionality of being compatible with "touch controllers" like macciza said and of course, incorporate the "z" attribute into the whole thing!
Glad to see you sorted it out! As for actually making the thing work as you wanted, perhaps the key feature here would be to make your DAW use that extra functionality of being compatible with "touch controllers" like macciza said and of course, incorporate the "z" attribute into the whole thing!